Particle は [Wed Semi-Intermediate]

[Semi-Intermediate Wed 19:30 class]

Particle は is always a big thing to tackle, as we study Japanese.

It's easy to say 'Just feel it and learn it', but saying so as a teacher is a lame excuse, after all, gomen! :-p Let our conversation on our WhatsApp group find its own way, shall we?

は (and が）is a really deep particle, maybe more similarly to dark particle like they deal with in physics! ;-P Most native Japanese speakers don't even know and probably never understand what we are talking about. *That* deep. Maybe this conversation and discussion may go in too deep but when you look at 'micro', you can start seeing 'macro'. :-)

I add my thoughts (post-chat) in blue in the conversation below 

So, Catherine wrote (after watching some cultural presentation in Japanese on Zoom meeting) :-

I noticed that she seem to start her reply to this question by saying: 私は英語は, with は x 2, a double topic marker, 'as for me and English, ....' Like with と...と.... but for a topic.

@Nori do you think I heard right? Or is it more likely that she said 私と英語は ? Although I don't think that's what I heard.... Or is a nested construction? (私は [英語は.......] )

I think you heard it right. In this context, 私と英語は、…doesn't make sense.

Gaspar:

 https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/5375/can-we-have-two-thematic-%E3%81%AF-particles-in-a-sentence

⇧Very interesting and informative!⇧

 Catharine:

 ありがとう It's a nuanced discussion and seems quite plausible. So  私は英語は could imply the dynamic or interplay between the two, which was borne out what what she went on to say: getting worse at English the more she studies, not recognising the simplicity of her own text when she sees it translated.

It's definitely the interplay for these two は. 

As usually translated as 'As for...' or 'Talking about ...', は can be function simply as a topic marker, but...

It's a particle, but a semantic one, not a syntactic one. In other words it's about meaning rather than the grammar of the sentence. Thanks for the example. I have also read about this contrastive use. It's a helpful reminder, and a helpful example because I think it's different from  私は英語は. I think in 'gasper san wa nihongo wa jouzu desu' the two are nested. [gasper san wa [nihongo wa jouzu desu]]  But I don't think they are nested in what (Sayata)Murataさん said.

Yes, it's also used for contrast. But whenever I think of this, I think, after all, a new topic and information in a sentence IS a sort of a target to some sort of a contrast to OHER *possible* information (it can be one, or can be hundreds). The possibility is uncountable in this case of は。 But が is marking or shall I say 'highlighting' a restrictive one-and-only subject.

@Nori I often think the best way to explain は  --- at least not the nested one --- is that it's actually more like punctuation in English (except in Glasgow) than anything else, a colon or dash. What do you think?

There ia a film called, 'I, Daniel Blake'. (it's set in Newcastle) This is probably like, 'Talking about me (I), [although there are thousands of jobseekers out there like me] I am Daniel Blake.' I need to find out why Ken Loach decided to name a title like this, though. ;-)

Gaspar :

 it's Japanese(は)  that he's good at.
(In Glasgow) 'See Gaspar --- he's good at Japanese(が).'

Graham:

I read that wa isn’t strictly speaking isn’t a particle as it doesn’t involve interaction with the verb. When you use wa a second time it’s the clarify something or add something to the information bubble But yea for contrast also . I can say gasper san wa nihongo wa jouzu desu. Gasper is good at japanese ( and nothing else ) Which is why I have to use ga . Gaspar san wa Nihongo ga jouzu desu . Gasper is good at Japanese (but not just Japanese )

Hmmm, that's quite tricky to say 'は is not involved in verb interaction', though. But I know what you mean. It's quite a feather-touched function, rather than heavily involved with the verb. I like the term you used, 'information bubble'!!

 Gaspar san wa Nihongo ga jouzu desu. Gasper is good at Japanese (but not just Japanese )

Hmmm, this <(but not just Japanese)> may be unnecessary. This が after Nihongo does not carry much after this utterance. For me, が does not have a big bag with it to carry lots of meaning/implication, whilst は can have a huge bag, very flexible.

Catharine : 

in a Q and A with an author, when she herself is the topic of the whole conversation, 私は is redundant but perhaps habitual. No one was interested in hearing about anyone else! 

Wow, Catharine, you got it! Exactly, seriously exactly! My hat is off!

But still I think  私は英語は means something like: 'English and me, well ....' or 'my experience learning English ---- ...' as an introduction to what she was about to say (about getting worse at it the more she learns)'

Come to think of it, I think that in a sentence, we can carry as many topics as possible, although if it's one or two, a small number, keeps the sentence neat and clear. In this sentence, she wanted to display 私（topic1) and 英語 (topic2). The weights (importance) of these two (topic1 and topic2) can vary or can be the same. In this instance, she utters 私 before 英語、so it's usually the case the importance of 私 is heavier than 英語。